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Saturday, November 15, 2014
River CC to take on responsibility for Castle Lane Square information Board
River Community Council agreed on Wednesday night to take responsibility for the information board that was installed in Castle Lane Square over 2 months ago and has remained barren of information since.
Why dont they hire a town crier it would spread the news quicker around Nairn. Iam sure the application for one would be filled in quick. Iam sure Riverside Community Council has somebody in mind.
I wonder how many (English-speaking or foreign) visitors and tourists will even understand what the noticeboard is, and what it is supposed to be providing information about?
The title on the top suggests that it is not aimed at them at all, but at a particular minority (visitors from the Outer Hebrides?).
[Wikipedia quote: "The 2011 census of Scotland showed that a total of 1.1% of the Scottish population could speak Gaelic... with the Outer Hebrides being the main stronghold of the language."]
@lingua franc Uill nach neonach sin, leis a h-uile trioblaid fo ar comhair an diugh seo cuideigin eile a tha a' smaoineachd gur e Gaidhlig an rud as cunnartach dhuinn.
Perhaps all the local carry oots could display their menus on the board. It's be handy to see them all in one place, save walking up and down the High St
Nairn is worried,a terrible crisis, Not fear of Jihad or even Isis, No fear of ebola reaching our shires Or people with families in terrible wars! A horrible panic,all in despair , About the bloody notice board in Castle Square.
I agree it should be in English, unless all the notices are going to be about Gaelic stuff, Sainsburys is another annoying place, puting Gaelic on their signs first, instead you have to scroll through all this stuff, just let people know what they want to know. Let's stop all this spending on Gaelic signs etc. that would save money, it's not stopping people from learning the language if they are interested they will learn. I wonder how many people agree
There's no doubt that Gaelic is now a minority language in Scotland, but it's our language
If you are hell bent on it being erased and totally replaced by 'English' (not sure if you'd allow Scots?) then yes cut all funding and ensure that there is no sign of it anywhere. Whilst you're at it I suggest that you'll have to rename a few places in Scotland and well as many of our hills and mountains
You're in the majority if you're not a Gaelic speaker so there's every chance you'll get your way and be able to obliterate the language from our culture, as you say it's 'annoying' and shopping for you in the likes of Sainsbury's must be tricky
Personally I was hoping that Scotland was to be free of Westminster back in September but that hasn't happened, and you can see the results of it everywhere
But good luck with your campaign to remove Gaelic, I wish you well, maybe tartan could go as well, and how about that irritating celtic music. I'm sure the list goes on
I can understand your annoyance with the Gaelic language and living is this part of Scotland must be very hard for you if you can't read the language.
If you indeed live here then the name of the town itself derives from the Gaelic and arguably our town name should be changed to Alders as it's derived from Gaelic for river of the alders
Obviously we wouldn't want to confuse the good folk of Aldershot but I'm sure people would get used to the town name changing to Alders
It's just unfortunate for you that in the last attempt to wipe out our Gaelic language more wasn't done to rename towns, places etc in Scotland
It's also a shame that some people in Alders choose to hang onto their Gaelic culture and still have the likes of the Gaelic Choir and the Gaelic playgroup in the town. Obviously we should aim to change these to the the English Choir and the English playgroup in an effort to erase the Gaelic
There is also a Gaelic conversation group in the library and even some Gaelic books to be had there
Mistune your radio and you may unfortunately hear Gaelic on the radio, and indeed on your TV
As you say, innocently wander to our local Sainsbury's and there is more Gaelic, and now it faces you on the new notice board
Oh dear, seems as though you might be surrounded by it anon ;-(
I think you are taking the suggestions to the extreme I didn t see any mention of changing place names that are already Gaelic. You obviously think it is more important to fund Gaelic, than it is to help the poor in our society. I am also a believer that let those who wish to learn the language learn it, individuals who are not interested are not going to learn it from a few signs, I believe schools who teach Gaelic get extra funding, How is that fair?
The notice board is in the wrong place! Suggest outside the courthouse,that's considered the centre of Nairn is,nt it?I have never seen anyone bar a few hung over folk,stopping in castle lane! Whilst on the subject of wrong places,the beautiful fisherlady at the harbour,would look so much better on a pedestal about a metre or so high!!!
Gaelic is still (miraculously) part of the rich tapestry of Scottish life. Turn against it if you wish but basically you are simply turning against your own heritage.
I'm a supporter of Gaelic, but the Gaelic signs annoy me. I always wonder how many Gaelic speakers don't speak English, as opposed to English speakers who don't speak The Gaelic ?
Looking at the debate and interest this has caused it seems to me as though we should have more Gaelic signage about place. Had the notice board just read as that it might just have gone... unnoticed
Gaelic music, Gaelic poetry and the Gaelic language are rich, vibrant and important elements of our culture.
But to inform, influence or interact with people, you have to address them in a language they understand.
It's called communication. It requires an understanding of the audience you are addressing.
It is reasonable to encourage those who speak or appreciate Gaelic to continue to do so in circumstances where that is appropriate (in creches, at schools, on stage...).
But that is a different matter from the public provision of information - on roadsigns, shop notices, or noticeboards - to those (British or foreign) who seek, and need, to know what this town offers, and who do not read or speak Gaelic. Foisting Gaelic on them is disrespectful as well as ineffective.
English was foisted upon many people who held only the Gaelic language, I don't hear any apologists for that. It was effective though, partly why the language declined so much when speaking it was banned
@anon "plus ça change" and your quote. Is it available anywhere esle, that wikipedia page could be accused of being iffy: "his article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. The neutrality of this article is disputed. (September 2013) This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. The specific problem is: Article appears quite biased in places. (September 2013)"
Page 119 of Professor Tom Devine's excellent 2011 tome "To the Ends of the Earth" - considers some of the views of those with UK responsibility to alleviate poverty at the time of Scotland's potato blight famine. Prof Devine's analysis is that in the present day - we might consider it as a form of ethnic cleansing.
Sorry Mr Gurn - crossed wires ... The page in Tom Devine's wee book is the section that relates to the Westminster Treasury Minister - Lord who was clearly relaxed about ethnically cleansing the Gaels - in Ireland and in the Highlands - and replacing us with Teutonic types. As I said .... plus ça change
Your quote can be seen in another academic context here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hX2EzyZcASAC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=the+prospects+of+flights+of+Germans+settling+here+in+increasing+numbers&source=bl&ots=neQut_u_au&sig=m0SsSWpj-sPQkr7fqZBzxFYpxwo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KPpoVP3wM9DkavGEgbAH&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quite a lot in this thread now, I'm now going to add something that was published previously on the Gurn. A little bit of info about Gaelic in Nairn:
"According to the last census there were nearly 200 people that could speak Gaelic and another 100 who could understand or read the language but not speak it. Soon we will have the new census figures and it will be interesting to see how the recent growth in the number of learners in the town and the numbers of bairns attending the Millbank Gaelic unit has affected those figures. What will also be interesting will be to see how many people also recorded their abilities to speak, understand, read or write Scots in response to the other linguistic question on the census. But back to Gaelic just now. The term “linguistic relevance” was used recently in the Nairnshire. A loaded term perhaps that means many things to many people. If two people meet in the High Street and have their conversation in Gaelic does that have any less linguistic relevance that other people speaking English nearby or say visitors from Europe speaking a strong dialect of one of the continental Languages? Does a child’s answer to a teacher in Gaelic have any linguistic relevance than that of an monolingual pupil in a nearby class? Does the Gaelic tribute written on one of the wreaths at the war memorial on Sunday have any less linguistic relevance than other tributes in English?
In 1822 research by the Inverness Society for the Poor maintained that 62% of the population of Nairn were Gaelic speakers, 55% in Ard Clach and 75% in Cawdor. The Cawdor figure is significant if compared to a similar figure in the present day for the Back area in Lewis which is considered the strongest surviving community of Gaelic speakers in the remaining traditional areas. In 1854 500 residents of Nairn who wished to maintain Gaelic services in “the only language in which they could be edified” were over-ruled by the Church of Scotland. Gaelic had relevance to the punters in 1854 but the high heid yins were well into the English-speaking way of things. And then we can see the gradual decline of what remains of the Nairnshire Gaidhealtachd from the census figures of 1881 onwards. Those figures have since then always been topped up by Gaelic speakers moving to the area and as mentioned above we now have children in Nairn being educated in the language. One could perhaps safely claim that some Gaelic has been spoken in Nairnshire from the day it first established itself here.
But back to the question – when did the local dialect die? Information in the Survey of the Gaelic Dialects of Scotland published 1997 states that in November1952 Fred MacAulay interviewed a Mrs Fraser in Cooperhill Darnaway. She was aged 90 and had been born in New Inn, Glenferness. Her father was also born in Glenferness but her mother was from Farr, Strathnairn. “When aged 2 Mrs Fraser moved from Glenferness to Terriemore where she was brought up among Gaelic speakers. Her father used to read the Gaelic bible to the family daily, though she feels her mother had better Gaelic.” Another interesting interview was with Alexander James Johnstone of Easterton, Fisherton just over the Nairnshire border past Ardersier. He was aged 74 “born Easterton, parents Westerton. Fluent but has not spoken Gaelic for a long time apart from a few words with other local speakers in Fisherton.” Interviews took place over August-October 1953.
Within living memory local Gaelic dialects were spoken in the area then. Whatever your attitude towards Gaelic it’s impact on Nairnshire cannot be denied and it continues to exist in the town and with 40 children now being educated in the language its presence will continue in one shape or form for at least the lifetime of the present younger generation."
Fair enough but at the moment it appears to have no information at all apart from our language on the top. so lets have your suggestions as what you want.{every little helps} MURD
At last sense prevails....
ReplyDeleteWe should all be trying harder to promote our town
poor excuse saying it takes 2 months for the concrete to set
ReplyDeleteWhy dont they hire a town crier it would spread the news quicker around Nairn. Iam sure the application for one would be filled in quick. Iam sure Riverside Community Council has somebody in mind.
ReplyDeleteLet's have more support and info from local businesses as it would be beneficial to all parties involved
DeleteHas the concrete set yet, you can't be too careful
ReplyDeleteIf only it could be moved to a place where folk walk by it and it would get seen
#wasteofmoney
I wonder how many (English-speaking or foreign) visitors and tourists will even understand what the noticeboard is, and what it is supposed to be providing information about?
ReplyDeleteThe title on the top suggests that it is not aimed at them at all, but at a particular minority (visitors from the Outer Hebrides?).
[Wikipedia quote: "The 2011 census of Scotland showed that a total of 1.1% of the Scottish population could speak Gaelic... with the Outer Hebrides being the main stronghold of the language."]
@lingua franc Uill nach neonach sin, leis a h-uile trioblaid fo ar comhair an diugh seo cuideigin eile a tha a' smaoineachd gur e Gaidhlig an rud as cunnartach dhuinn.
ReplyDeleteGood for you. Who's a clever boy
DeletePerhaps all the local carry oots could display their menus on the board. It's be handy to see them all in one place, save walking up and down the High St
ReplyDeleteGood starting point...
DeleteNairn is worried,a terrible crisis, Not fear of Jihad or even Isis, No fear of ebola reaching our shires Or people with families in terrible wars! A horrible panic,all in despair , About the bloody notice board in Castle Square.
ReplyDeleteGet 6.58.Annon on the council QUICK!
ReplyDeleteOr vote 7.42 for result
ReplyDeletethe noticeboard would be better placed outside the courthouse,would,nt it.People look at the notices there anyway,when visiting Nairn.
ReplyDeleteI agree it should be in English, unless all the notices are going to be about Gaelic stuff, Sainsburys is another annoying place, puting Gaelic on their signs first, instead you have to scroll through all this stuff, just let people know what they want to know. Let's stop all this spending on Gaelic signs etc. that would save money, it's not stopping people from learning the language if they are interested they will learn. I wonder how many people agree
ReplyDelete@anon 10:08
ReplyDeleteThere's no doubt that Gaelic is now a minority language in Scotland, but it's our language
If you are hell bent on it being erased and totally replaced by 'English' (not sure if you'd allow Scots?) then yes cut all funding and ensure that there is no sign of it anywhere. Whilst you're at it I suggest that you'll have to rename a few places in Scotland and well as many of our hills and mountains
You're in the majority if you're not a Gaelic speaker so there's every chance you'll get your way and be able to obliterate the language from our culture, as you say it's 'annoying' and shopping for you in the likes of Sainsbury's must be tricky
Personally I was hoping that Scotland was to be free of Westminster back in September but that hasn't happened, and you can see the results of it everywhere
But good luck with your campaign to remove Gaelic, I wish you well, maybe tartan could go as well, and how about that irritating celtic music. I'm sure the list goes on
Perhaps the sign could be uplifted as it's so unpopular and be used to repair the Bailey bridge so that cars get to drive around more of our town?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if they will post my little achievements when I do something FREE for the good of the community {every little helps}
ReplyDeleteMURD
http://www.hie.co.uk/about-hie/news-and-media/archive/research-reveals-value-of-gaelic-to-businesses-and-communities-in-scotland.html#sthash.bIfCK6Up.dpbs
ReplyDeleteLike it or love?
Tourists welcome it.
Businesses welcome it.
And it's worth around £100,000,000 to the economy.
Slainte Mhor
Cailean
@Anon 10:08
ReplyDeleteI can understand your annoyance with the Gaelic language and living is this part of Scotland must be very hard for you if you can't read the language.
If you indeed live here then the name of the town itself derives from the Gaelic and arguably our town name should be changed to Alders as it's derived from Gaelic for river of the alders
Obviously we wouldn't want to confuse the good folk of Aldershot but I'm sure people would get used to the town name changing to Alders
It's just unfortunate for you that in the last attempt to wipe out our Gaelic language more wasn't done to rename towns, places etc in Scotland
It's also a shame that some people in Alders choose to hang onto their Gaelic culture and still have the likes of the Gaelic Choir and the Gaelic playgroup in the town. Obviously we should aim to change these to the the English Choir and the English playgroup in an effort to erase the Gaelic
There is also a Gaelic conversation group in the library and even some Gaelic books to be had there
Mistune your radio and you may unfortunately hear Gaelic on the radio, and indeed on your TV
As you say, innocently wander to our local Sainsbury's and there is more Gaelic, and now it faces you on the new notice board
Oh dear, seems as though you might be surrounded by it anon ;-(
Gael@10.08
ReplyDeleteI think you are taking the suggestions to the extreme
I didn t see any mention of changing place names that are already Gaelic. You obviously think it is more important to fund Gaelic, than it is to help the poor in our society.
I am also a believer that let those who wish to learn the language learn it, individuals who are not interested are not going to learn it from a few signs, I believe schools who teach Gaelic get extra funding, How is that fair?
I don 't think anything has changed since sept and the No vote everything is just as it was before.
ReplyDeleteWe were broke then and we are broke now!
The notice board is in the wrong place! Suggest outside the courthouse,that's considered the centre of Nairn is,nt it?I have never seen anyone bar a few hung over folk,stopping in castle lane! Whilst on the subject of wrong places,the beautiful fisherlady at the harbour,would look so much better on a pedestal about a metre or so high!!!
ReplyDeleteGaelic is still (miraculously) part of the rich tapestry of Scottish life. Turn against it if you wish but basically you are simply turning against your own heritage.
ReplyDeleteI'm a supporter of Gaelic, but the Gaelic signs annoy me. I always wonder how many Gaelic speakers don't speak English, as opposed to English speakers who don't speak The Gaelic ?
ReplyDeleteLooking at the debate and interest this has caused it seems to me as though we should have more Gaelic signage about place. Had the notice board just read as that it might just have gone... unnoticed
ReplyDelete@anon "plus ça change" and your quote
ReplyDeleteHave no doubt at all that it is authentic but do you have a reference for who said that? Just to clear up origin.
Gaelic music, Gaelic poetry and the Gaelic language are rich, vibrant and important elements of our culture.
ReplyDeleteBut to inform, influence or interact with people, you have to address them in a language they understand.
It's called communication. It requires an understanding of the audience you are addressing.
It is reasonable to encourage those who speak or appreciate Gaelic to continue to do so in circumstances where that is appropriate (in creches, at schools, on stage...).
But that is a different matter from the public provision of information - on roadsigns, shop notices, or noticeboards - to those (British or foreign) who seek, and need, to know what this town offers, and who do not read or speak Gaelic. Foisting Gaelic on them is disrespectful as well as ineffective.
@ Culture vulture
ReplyDeleteEnglish was foisted upon many people who held only the Gaelic language, I don't hear any apologists for that. It was effective though, partly why the language declined so much when speaking it was banned
@anon "plus ça change" and your quote. Is it available anywhere esle, that wikipedia page could be accused of being iffy:
ReplyDelete"his article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
The neutrality of this article is disputed. (September 2013)
This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. The specific problem is: Article appears quite biased in places. (September 2013)"
Page 119 of Professor Tom Devine's excellent 2011 tome "To the Ends of the Earth" - considers some of the views of those with UK responsibility to alleviate poverty at the time of Scotland's potato blight famine.
ReplyDeleteProf Devine's analysis is that in the present day - we might consider it as a form of ethnic cleansing.
Murd it's just not about you!
ReplyDeleteSorry Mr Gurn - crossed wires ...
ReplyDeleteThe page in Tom Devine's wee book is the section that relates to the Westminster Treasury Minister - Lord who was clearly relaxed about ethnically cleansing the Gaels - in Ireland and in the Highlands - and replacing us with Teutonic types.
As I said .... plus ça change
Your quote can be seen in another academic context here
ReplyDeletehttp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hX2EzyZcASAC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=the+prospects+of+flights+of+Germans+settling+here+in+increasing+numbers&source=bl&ots=neQut_u_au&sig=m0SsSWpj-sPQkr7fqZBzxFYpxwo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KPpoVP3wM9DkavGEgbAH&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quite a lot in this thread now, I'm now going to add something that was published previously on the Gurn. A little bit of info about Gaelic in Nairn:
ReplyDelete"According to the last census there were nearly 200 people that could speak Gaelic and another 100 who could understand or read the language but not speak it. Soon we will have the new census figures and it will be interesting to see how the recent growth in the number of learners in the town and the numbers of bairns attending the Millbank Gaelic unit has affected those figures. What will also be interesting will be to see how many people also recorded their abilities to speak, understand, read or write Scots in response to the other linguistic question on the census. But back to Gaelic just now. The term “linguistic relevance” was used recently in the Nairnshire. A loaded term perhaps that means many things to many people. If two people meet in the High Street and have their conversation in Gaelic does that have any less linguistic relevance that other people speaking English nearby or say visitors from Europe speaking a strong dialect of one of the continental Languages? Does a child’s answer to a teacher in Gaelic have any linguistic relevance than that of an monolingual pupil in a nearby class? Does the Gaelic tribute written on one of the wreaths at the war memorial on Sunday have any less linguistic relevance than other tributes in English?
In 1822 research by the Inverness Society for the Poor maintained that 62% of the population of Nairn were Gaelic speakers, 55% in Ard Clach and 75% in Cawdor. The Cawdor figure is significant if compared to a similar figure in the present day for the Back area in Lewis which is considered the strongest surviving community of Gaelic speakers in the remaining traditional areas. In 1854 500 residents of Nairn who wished to maintain Gaelic services in “the only language in which they could be edified” were over-ruled by the Church of Scotland. Gaelic had relevance to the punters in 1854 but the high heid yins were well into the English-speaking way of things. And then we can see the gradual decline of what remains of the Nairnshire Gaidhealtachd from the census figures of 1881 onwards. Those figures have since then always been topped up by Gaelic speakers moving to the area and as mentioned above we now have children in Nairn being educated in the language. One could perhaps safely claim that some Gaelic has been spoken in Nairnshire from the day it first established itself here.
But back to the question – when did the local dialect die? Information in the Survey of the Gaelic Dialects of Scotland published 1997 states that in November1952 Fred MacAulay interviewed a Mrs Fraser in Cooperhill Darnaway. She was aged 90 and had been born in New Inn, Glenferness. Her father was also born in Glenferness but her mother was from Farr, Strathnairn. “When aged 2 Mrs Fraser moved from Glenferness to Terriemore where she was brought up among Gaelic speakers. Her father used to read the Gaelic bible to the family daily, though she feels her mother had better Gaelic.”
Another interesting interview was with Alexander James Johnstone of Easterton, Fisherton just over the Nairnshire border past Ardersier. He was aged 74 “born Easterton, parents Westerton. Fluent but has not spoken Gaelic for a long time apart from a few words with other local speakers in Fisherton.” Interviews took place over August-October 1953.
Within living memory local Gaelic dialects were spoken in the area then. Whatever your attitude towards Gaelic it’s impact on Nairnshire cannot be denied and it continues to exist in the town and with 40 children now being educated in the language its presence will continue in one shape or form for at least the lifetime of the present younger generation."
Murd it's just not about you!
ReplyDeleteFair enough but at the moment it appears to have no information at all apart from our language on the top. so lets have your suggestions as what you want.{every little helps}
MURD